Indian Sales are Up Once Again.

[Roadie]

So Polaris announced today that overall sales are up 25% over last year. Good comp number! The Indian Motorcycle sales are up 16% over 3rd qtr. of 2016.

Well that quarter after quarter and year after year for a few straight years now which is great news while HD has been going in the other direction since Polaris now owns Indian.

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Live Free - Ride Hard - Die Well

[bwana6]

When you start from zero any increase shatters the stat board. Meanwhile, the LA store closed leaving ONE Indian store for 19 million people. Salt Lake City no more.............on one hand stats look great but real life its a little different. I hope corporate wakes up here. If HD can put 43 some stores in that LA area you would think Indian could get at least half a dozen................you would think.

[Roadie]

HD in dire straights for now and Indian is taking it to them in only 4 years.

http://host.madison.com/business/investment/markets-and-stocks/harley-davidson-s-earnings-report-is-even-worse-than-you/article_978ad433-6980-5e60-8ae8-a21cfee953f2.html

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Live Free - Ride Hard - Die Well

[Drifter]

Salt Lake City Indian is and has been open for months, 2900 State St. 150 miles to the north is another dealership in ID. Harley tries to keep it quiet 34 HD dealers have gone out of business in the last year.

[bwana6]

HD in dire straights for now and Indian is taking it to them in only 4 years.

http://host.madison.com/business/investment/markets-and-stocks/harley-davidson-s-earnings-report-is-even-worse-than-you/article_978ad433-6980-5e60-8ae8-a21cfee953f2.html

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Live Free - Ride Hard - Die Well

I understand the love for the product here but look at thre big picture. HD may have had an off year here ( cannot judge Indians year because of its growth curve ) but will still sell around 240,000 bikes compared to less than 25,000 for Polaris. While true that Indian buyers would most generally be HD buyers ( or lookers at the least ) .............Polaris may have hit its peak for 'robbing' HD sales stopping with new 2018 models and engine platforms. We need to talk this this time next year.

While I do hope that Polaris continues its growth, its dealer network remains a mess. Plain and simple. Stores closing and non - existent in very heavily populated areas and the pipeline from dealer to corporate is still borderline horrible. If this were corrected you would really see a huge jump in sales and customer satisfaction and resale. Now you have a great dealer where you are at. The Boerne TX site. There are other strong dealers as well. But all should sorta be like that and they are not. Same for HD and BMW and everything else I guess but more variances with Indian dealers than anything else.
Try to see this in a neutral light. If the dealer network was more organized ( and again............if they were all like your store outside of San Antonio ) you would see even more growth. Question is..............can Polaris assembly really take this on? Or are they geared for what we see now?  Ask yourself this also..........if HD or BMW or even Honda offered military rebates and law enforcement rebates plus incentives, would those manufacturers see big gains too?
Polaris holds numbers and other things very close to the vest unlike other makes do. So we all sit here and guess for the most part. But we can see limited dealers in areas where even Ferrari and exotic makes make a killing or simply no dealers. And total silence from Indian head muckity mucks as to why.
I mean its all good for us here but it can be better. Go for the kill instead of letting HD play their deadly game of rebounding.

[Drifter]

Indian was out of the game for 50+ years while HD had little competition mostly from Japan and grew into a major player. Don't be so impatient, lets wait and see how they compare in the year 2050. Vehicles may not even have wheels in 30 years.

[adamus]

Seems like indian is doing well. As for HD they are still the dominant force in the market. But they are having some trouble in sales lately & had to let staff go & close some dealerships. I’m sure they’ll turn it around next year & announce record profitability & be stronger than they ever have been. I like the new bikes. They have 100 more new bikes coming in the next 10 model years.

It’s important to note however that after only 4 model years the market penetration of the Polaris era Indians is remarkable & impressive. ONLY 4 YEARS!!!!!! It was said by many here that it would take 10 years for Indian to make a slight impact on the market. They are there after 4 model years.

Drifter - good call on the Salt Lake City Indian dealer being around. I verified it myself by calling them.

Another interesting point is current market share for Indian. It has definitely increased. No denying that now! I drive around a large portion of the country as a territory sales mgr. & at every opportunity stop in at Indian dealerships. In the past 4 years I’ve seen the number of dealerships grow considerably. Especially the last 2 years.  Dare I say too fast (perhaps a source for some dealerships being less competent than others regarding customer service ). Some dealerships are owned by business people that have no experience in the motorcycle industry & see an “opportunity “ but the dominant number of owners currently sell other brands & have been in the industry for decades. So it’s obvious as to why some dealerships MAY lack customer service whereas others (like the 3 by me) are good at it (those owners have been in the bike biz for quite some years).

It is my belief that in the years to come parity among dealerships will more or less be achieved regarding customer service. Rome wasn’t built in a day. Neither will the dealership network be. I think Polaris played the cautious route in the beginning to see if the market would be receptive to their Indian bikes. The caveat was a strained pipeline. When they realized what had been achieved they went all in as they closed up their victory brand. So hopefully in the near future the pipeline issue will be a thing of the past.

I’m betting that Indian will only want to sell at most less than half of what Harley sells in a year. This will help to maintain long term profitability on a per transaction basis, help to be immune from supply gluts from over production & plus it helps to keep the “exclusivity “ factor going.

I also think that the management team for Indian would want to see Harley succeed as this helps to keep vendor prices down on the supply chain side of things. Which helps profitability as well. Good on Indian! Good for the Indian Motorcycle enthusiast! & good for the general motorcycling public at large!

In closing I’d like to say I own a 2016 Chieftain but would like a 2nd hoopty bike & the 2018 Fat Boy just might have my ass sitting on it. MIGHT!!!! The only thing stopping me is news from my nearby Indian dealership stating Indian has been working on a model between the scout & big bikes. They’ll introduce not one but 3 of them bikes with a completely new engine mid-year! Let the bullshit keep flying baby! I get excited hearing stuff like that even if there is no proof! Booyaa!!

https://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/news/2017/10/24/indian-motorcycles-market-share-hit-double-digits.html


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[Roadie]

Read today after 4 years of sales of the new Indians, that they now own at least 10% of the market, the rest split between HD and all the other brands, especially the Japanese bikes, but HD share is shrinking.

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Live Free - Ride Hard - Die Well

[bwana6]

Keep your eye on inventory after the first quarter of next year. HD has a good choice of 2017's left and so does Indian along with a lot of 2016's and even 2015's. Faster paced stores have cleaned out old inventory but a lot remains.  Indian locations having quite a bit more older inventory than most makers. 

HD with its new models, and each model is new compared to the previous 2017 model year for the most part, may have to offer incentives on those 2017's especially the non M8 models. . Keep in mind that Indian offers incentives even on the 2018 models.

So is an Indian franchise really that expensive? Its a 500K franchise fee to Polaris plus another 500K for building mods ( this is assuming you own the building ) and most people that were asked by Polaris to open a store are a little hesitant because of the newness of the brand and the pipeline from them, the dealer, to corporate. Indian wants owners in some areas like FL to be established somewhat. Like successful car dealers, existing motorcycle shops, ect. But in other areas we have seen people that do not know a motorcycle from a wheelbarrow get franchises ( NM for one ) and I suppose its  just to get saturation.

But lets face it. HD is peppered across the country. Just a trip across east to west on really any interstate will show a HD store in every major town. Or smaller. We would think that HD would trim its sails a little here but what works, works. The fact that someone mentioned Indian would get half of HD's business is a far fetched pipe dream. They are 30 years from building a dealer base that can handle those numbers and Spirit Lake is not York PA or Milwaukee engine assembly. If Indian can just get into major metro areas with money, then can remain exclusive and can be a force. And with this comes better quality control, better awareness and better product. I think most of us do not care when push comes to shove about HD or Indian ownership...................just as long as it all works. Warranty, parts, service, ect. The winner here will emerge after next year. Just stay tuned. We are the winners here

[adamus]

Keep your eye on inventory after the first quarter of next year. HD has a good choice of 2017's left and so does Indian along with a lot of 2016's and even 2015's. Faster paced stores have cleaned out old inventory but a lot remains.  Indian locations having quite a bit more older inventory than most makers. 

HD with its new models, and each model is new compared to the previous 2017 model year for the most part, may have to offer incentives on those 2017's especially the non M8 models. . Keep in mind that Indian offers incentives even on the 2018 models.

So is an Indian franchise really that expensive? Its a 500K franchise fee to Polaris plus another 500K for building mods ( this is assuming you own the building ) and most people that were asked by Polaris to open a store are a little hesitant because of the newness of the brand and the pipeline from them, the dealer, to corporate. Indian wants owners in some areas like FL to be established somewhat. Like successful car dealers, existing motorcycle shops, ect. But in other areas we have seen people that do not know a motorcycle from a wheelbarrow get franchises ( NM for one ) and I suppose its  just to get saturation.

But lets face it. HD is peppered across the country. Just a trip across east to west on really any interstate will show a HD store in every major town. Or smaller. We would think that HD would trim its sails a little here but what works, works. The fact that someone mentioned Indian would get half of HD's business is a far fetched pipe dream. They are 30 years from building a dealer base that can handle those numbers and Spirit Lake is not York PA or Milwaukee engine assembly. If Indian can just get into major metro areas with money, then can remain exclusive and can be a force. And with this comes better quality control, better awareness and better product. I think most of us do not care when push comes to shove about HD or Indian ownership...................just as long as it all works. Warranty, parts, service, ect. The winner here will emerge after next year. Just stay tuned. We are the winners here

Not sure who said Indian will achieve half of what HD does in sales. I for one said “less than half”. Which is not at all unrealistic. Especially since this article makes some sound points on numbers. There’s interesting points brought up in the 2nd & 7th paragraph. We will see where it goes.

http://www.motorcycle.com/features/indian-wars-whos-winning.html

On the production capacity front I spoke with a truck driver delivering Indians & a regional rep for Indian & asked them about capacity at Spirit Lake, IA. Both have said the plant is gigantic & is so underutilized capacity at an enormous scale quite possible. Whatever that means. I’ll be touring the facility soon to see for myself & get an idea of what it’s capable of. I’m well aware of the engine plant in Osceola, WI for Indian Motorcycle but not sure if they offer a plant tour there otherwise I’d check it out as well. While on the subject Polaris is HQ’ed in Medina, MN & the link provided shows its global footprint. I had no idea how big this Corporation really is:

http://www.polaris.com/en-us/company/locations

I came across this link of FAQ’s for the “fee” to be an Indian dealership but not so sure as to when this was last updated.

http://www.indianmotorcycle.com/en-us/become-a-dealer

Mind you it wasn’t for $500,000 but half that for $250,000. Not so sure on the cash outlays for renovations/build fees. I guess it would depend on location, contractor & such.

In all it’s good news for the motorcycle consumer.


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[K2V2]

The last time I checked tours were available at the Osceola plant, but I believe only one day a week. 

[ThreeChiefs]

So is an Indian franchise really that expensive? Its a 500K franchise fee to Polaris plus another 500K for building mods ( this is assuming you own the building )

That's BS on the franchise fee. There is none. The minimum $250,000 they mention is dealer working capital a lack of which is the demise of most new businesses. I would expect you would also need an open line at your bank of at least that much to keep inventory flowing.

As to the building mods there's no way to put a standard figure on that such as the quoted $500K. I own a 14,000sf building on a state highway with an open floor plan that could be done for under $100K. Other buildings may need a major redo, plus remodel costs would vary greatly by market. It would be impossible to pre-dictate that cost.

[bwana6]

Ahhhh..............you better check. Its 500K up front plus the building and whatever PLUS the fender and fireplace scenario.

Most do not own a building like you claim you do. Keep that in mind. This is probably why Indian stores are not all on freeway exits or freeway visibility and I can name probably 10 stores that are in borderline ghetto areas because of getting into buildings cheaply. So the average person needs to revamp or find an existing building and then decorate it the 'Indian' way along with the parts minimum. Look.........I know car dealers, former dealers from HD and existing dealers and in between and its a 1 million mark to get rolling in nearly all cases. You may be confused with Victory franchise fees. indian is 500K all day long no matter where. Some people have tried to play 'lets make a deal' with Polaris and got nowhere. There are NO Indian stores in money rich Sarasota FL, Naples FL ( largest Cadillac store E of the Mississippi )........Tampa FL...........and ONE store in LA with 19 million people. Why? The start up is heavy and people are hesitant on Indian future but are becoming a little more relaxed there as the stats show growth.

There us a large Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep store mega owner in the Tampa area and he gets approached by Indian 2X a year but Indian will not budge once ounce on the franchise fee. So he asks around for a partner but even at that, everyone is hesitant. Look at the Ferman Auto Group with its dozen stores in Florida. Big big players that also own 6 HD stores too. Now they are not allergic to money but Indian franchise fee's have scared off that thought. HD fees are gauged differently for everyone. Not going into that as it is irrelevant.

But here is what you do not understand and read this one good..............

http://www.indianmotorcycle.com/en-us/become-a-dealer

Indian wants 250K in liquid assets to even get the ball going. In other words, no friends at banks to OK a 500K business loan for a franchise fee. You have to have some clout behind you because if you go sideways, you will be hurt also. Not just the Indian/Polaris goodwill.
Those liquid assets mean you are somewhat substantial in Indians eyes. I can see that.
Now if you think 250K mark is the magic number than I suggest a Subway franchise that used to be much cheaper. Or a Papa Johns. That will get you the equipment and franchise rights. Now the building.
So do homework first before the BS jab.

[K2V2]

Man, you guys sure are funny.
The number I always heard from people who know what's what (Indian and Polaris dealers) is $250K.

[133]

bwana, you are a smart guy and I enjoy your knowledge and insights into the HD world, but just for fun...
Attached is a bird's-eye view of the location of the Honolulu Indian dealership, circled in red.  The dealership is on Nimitz Highway,
 the main drag between Waikiki and the rest of the island, and this short 3/4-mile section is divided into East-bound and West-bound traffic, making it much easier to navigate.  The dealership has the perfect location in the center island of this highway, and with entrances and exits connecting on both directions, makes it easy to get to, easy to enter, and easy to exit.  This is one of the most famous sections of highway in the world - even all of Honolulu's cruise ships dock at Aloha Tower, shown in the picture, just down the street and East of the dealership.  Not exactly next to the ghetto.